Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

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Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:55 am

(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - There have been sporadic reports of late suggesting that Hamas might rethink its principled stance of refusing to recognize Israel. The reelection of Khalid Mashaal as the chief of the movement's politburo may have created a certain impression that Hamas is opting for more pragmatism. Moreover, the United States has reiterated its refusal to talk with Hamas until Hamas recognizes Israel and ends armed resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Such rumors are not being circulated in the media for the first time. In fact, we have been hearing such rumors for decades, effectively ever since the creation of the Islamist liberation group in 1987.

The circulation of these rumors is not an innocent act, it is intended to create an impression that Hamas is walking in the same path that Fatah walked in when it recognized Israel and signed the hapless Oslo Accords 20 years ago.

It is also meant to create confusion and discredit Hamas, especially after the Palestinian Islamist movement more or less succeeded in achieving a semblance of deterrence vis-à-vis Israel.

The truth of the matter is that Hamas has not changed its mind about the basic issues of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Hamas will not recognize Israel for religious reasons, first and foremost. For Hamas, recognizing Israel would be an instant and clarion political and moral suicide.

In a nutshell, the bulk of Hamas supporters would abandon the movement and form a new organization in case Hamas recognized the Zionist regime. Recognizing Israel is no less than committing adultery with the Palestinian cause.

It would make Hamas look a poor mimicry of Fatah, which would make customers opt for the original version, not the imitation.

The PLO recognized Israel back in 1993, even without a reciprocal Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state. So what was the result? Did the Palestinians recover their rights? Did Israel allow for the creation of a viable Palestinian state? Did Israel stop Judaizing Jerusalem and come to terms with the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees, uprooted from their ancestral homes at the hands of Zionist-Jewish invaders from Eastern Europe?

Why doesn't the so-called honest broker, the U.S., refrain from exerting any pressure on Israel and only have a fixation on Hamas?

Well, Hamas is not and will not be eager to talk to the Americans or even the Europeans. In the final analysis, the U.S. is part of the problem. After all it was thanks to America's unlimited and unrestricted support and backing of Israel that Israel has been able to spread its aggression and insolence all over the region.


(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - There have been sporadic reports of late suggesting that Hamas might rethink its principled stance of refusing to recognize Israel. The reelection of Khalid Mashaal as the chief of the movement's politburo may have created a certain impression that Hamas is opting for more pragmatism. Moreover, the United States has reiterated its refusal to talk with Hamas until Hamas recognizes Israel and ends armed resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Such rumors are not being circulated in the media for the first time. In fact, we have been hearing such rumors for decades, effectively ever since the creation of the Islamist liberation group in 1987.

The circulation of these rumors is not an innocent act, it is intended to create an impression that Hamas is walking in the same path that Fatah walked in when it recognized Israel and signed the hapless Oslo Accords 20 years ago.

It is also meant to create confusion and discredit Hamas, especially after the Palestinian Islamist movement more or less succeeded in achieving a semblance of deterrence vis-à-vis Israel.

The truth of the matter is that Hamas has not changed its mind about the basic issues of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Hamas will not recognize Israel for religious reasons, first and foremost. For Hamas, recognizing Israel would be an instant and clarion political and moral suicide.

In a nutshell, the bulk of Hamas supporters would abandon the movement and form a new organization in case Hamas recognized the Zionist regime. Recognizing Israel is no less than committing adultery with the Palestinian cause.

It would make Hamas look a poor mimicry of Fatah, which would make customers opt for the original version, not the imitation.

The PLO recognized Israel back in 1993, even without a reciprocal Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state. So what was the result? Did the Palestinians recover their rights? Did Israel allow for the creation of a viable Palestinian state? Did Israel stop Judaizing Jerusalem and come to terms with the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees, uprooted from their ancestral homes at the hands of Zionist-Jewish invaders from Eastern Europe?

The answers for these questions are clear to all and show that posing the very question of whether Hamas will recognize Israel is actually a red herring.

Besides, why is the question directed to Hamas not to the myriad of Jewish political parties in Israel which don’t even recognize the very existence of the Palestinian people? Does the Bayt Yehudi (which is a coalition partner in the Netanyahu government) recognize the Palestinian people? Does Yisrael Betenu recognize the Palestinian national existence on its ancestral homeland? The answer for these entire questions is, of course, "NO."

If so, then why doesn't the so-called honest broker, the U.S., refrain from exerting any pressure on Israel and only have a fixation on Hamas?

Well, Hamas is not and will not be eager to talk to the Americans or even the Europeans. In the final analysis, the U.S. is part of the problem. After all it was thanks to America's unlimited and unrestricted support and backing of Israel that Israel has been able to spread its aggression and insolence all over the region.

Indeed, it has been due to America's obsequious approach to Israel that Israel has been able to decapitate the two-state solution strategy altogether by building hundreds of Jewish-only colonies, inhabited by die-hard Talmudic-minded Jewish fanatics who believe that all non-Jews are beasts in a human shape whose lives have absolutely no sanctity.

In fact, the United States would be utterly unable to force Israel to give up the stolen Arab land even if all Muslim countries and organizations were to unanimously recognize Israel.

The U.S. is too subservient to Jewish pressure groups to grant itself the free will necessary to pursue a truly independent and honest foreign policy. Indeed, for the US to be able to play a truly constructive role in the task of Middle-East peace-making, the US must first free itself from the tight Israeli-Jewish stranglehold.

As to the Europeans (the original sinners) they, too, could do very little. Haven't these hypocrites asked themselves who needs to recognize whom, Israel, the nuclear-armed state which also has the only super-power in this world at her beck and call, or the tormented and savaged Palestinians who have been languishing under history's longest military occupation?

Hamas will not be striving to satisfy world powers for a certificate of good conduct, it is certainly not eager to be invited to the White House or to the European Union headquarters in Brussels in order to "join the civilized world," the very same world which superimposed Israel on Palestine, leading to history's grandest theft. It is the same civilized world which had murdered millions of innocent people and called the genocidal ethnic cleansing "manifest destiny."

Hamas is not against Israel because Israel is Jewish. Any suggestion or allusion to that effect has no iota of truth. True followers of Moses have both historical and religious legitimacy in Islam.

Hamas is against Israel because Israel happens to be murderer, thief and aggressor. Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds. Are we supposed to recognize a state as such, based on terror, violence and war? Were the French asked to recognize the legitimacy of the Nazi occupation of their country?

And now a last word. Israel has been negotiating with the PLO for two decades. The PLO carried out every conceivable Israeli demand, including torturing and even killing Palestinian activists on Israel's behalf. The PLO groveled at Israel's feet for too long and went to previously unimaginable extents to appease Israel.

But Israel treated the PLO as a vanquished supplicant, not a peace partner.

Hamas must not repeat the same experience under any circumstances, even at the expense of being viewed as a pariah by the U.S. In this hypocritical world, being viewed as a pariah should be considered an ultimate virtue, not a stigma.


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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Bryant on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:51 pm

It certainly sheds some light on the complexity of the situation, as well as the repercussions of the treatment of the PLO (ie not-Hamas) by Israel and the US. This is a nasty situation with no clear, pleasant outcome. Neither side seems to have any incentive to cease hostilities.
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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:08 pm

You mean the terrorist organization the PLO?

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:09 pm

The PLO atafat used to enrich himself?

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Bryant on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:59 pm

Pun wrote:You mean the terrorist organization the PLO?

Crap, I just screwed up my acronyms! I was thinking Palestinian Authority (ie the governing, non-militant administration that oversees West Bank and technically-but-not-really Gaza). My apologies.
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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Miles1 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:58 am

Problem here is, neither side can really claim the moral high ground, as both sides have blood on their hands. The whole "Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds." only gives half the story really, given that any time Israel gained new territory it was after its neighbours had invaded it trying to wipe it off the map and it beat the shit out of them and drove them back. Plus, what Hamas is saying Israel did is exactly what they have said that they would do to Israel (and worse) given half a chance. And you could say that Israel effectively has Gaza under siege with the border wall, blockades etc but any time they let up on their chokehold they end up with rockets being fired at them or some palestinian getting on a bus/going into a crowded restaurant wearing a semtex waistcoat packed with nails.

On the other side of the coin, Israel's siege mentality has led to a dehumanizing of the palestinians and a situation where they're not seen to "matter" as much as israelis, so you get overkill and a willingness to accept "collateral damage" when they go into gaza to silence the rockets. Then there's the building of new settlements, which is effectively an "oil drop" strategy to try to force the palestinians off the good land, which doesn't really work if the people you're forcing of the land eventually don't have anywhere else to go. Israel seems to be trying to do to the palestinians what the american settlers did to the indians as the USA advanced west.

So, at this stage, there's not really a "right" and "wrong" left, there's just two different types of wrong. Both sides are engaging in wishful thinking that the other side will eventually go away, which won't work. There's no real way that Israel can militarily beat the insurgents short of complete genocide, and there's no way that hamas can beat israel, period. All both sides are doing at this stage is prolonging the agony, every time it looks like there may be an outbreak of sanity, some palestinian nutter martyr-wannabe with a death wish (or a hankering for his 72 virgins, same thing) lobs a few rockets/mortars across the border, the Israelis send in the apache gunships and take out a few civilians in the process, the hawks on both sides get to say "see, we told you those bastards can't be trusted" and the whole thing falls apart again.

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Bryant on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:18 am

Miles1 wrote:Problem here is, neither side can really claim the moral high ground, as both sides have blood on their hands. The whole "Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds." only gives half the story really, given that any time Israel gained new territory it was after its neighbours had invaded it trying to wipe it off the map and it beat the shit out of them and drove them back. Plus, what Hamas is saying Israel did is exactly what they have said that they would do to Israel (and worse) given half a chance. And you could say that Israel effectively has Gaza under siege with the border wall, blockades etc but any time they let up on their chokehold they end up with rockets being fired at them or some palestinian getting on a bus/going into a crowded restaurant wearing a semtex waistcoat packed with nails.

On the other side of the coin, Israel's siege mentality has led to a dehumanizing of the palestinians and a situation where they're not seen to "matter" as much as israelis, so you get overkill and a willingness to accept "collateral damage" when they go into gaza to silence the rockets. Then there's the building of new settlements, which is effectively an "oil drop" strategy to try to force the palestinians off the good land, which doesn't really work if the people you're forcing of the land eventually don't have anywhere else to go. Israel seems to be trying to do to the palestinians what the american settlers did to the indians as the USA advanced west.

So, at this stage, there's not really a "right" and "wrong" left, there's just two different types of wrong. Both sides are engaging in wishful thinking that the other side will eventually go away, which won't work. There's no real way that Israel can militarily beat the insurgents short of complete genocide, and there's no way that hamas can beat israel, period. All both sides are doing at this stage is prolonging the agony, every time it looks like there may be an outbreak of sanity, some palestinian nutter martyr-wannabe with a death wish (or a hankering for his 72 virgins, same thing) lobs a few rockets/mortars across the border, the Israelis send in the apache gunships and take out a few civilians in the process, the hawks on both sides get to say "see, we told you those bastards can't be trusted" and the whole thing falls apart again.

While I agree that neither side has high ground, its important to note that there really isn't any incentive on other side to find peace. Israeli politicians need Hamas for political reasons (they're kinda the Welsh of the middle east) and as an excuse to pump money out of the USA. Hamas has little reason to try for peace because when they quit shooting the settlers come in and grab more of their land. The best Hamas could hope for in peace with Israel would be to end up living as second class citizens like their countrymen in West Bank. Both sides say they want peace, but neither has done anything substantive to suggest they are willing to work towards one.
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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Sir Pun on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:31 pm

Question though and its not a gotcha, just a serious question. If palestinians were made full citizens of israel (which i doubt theyd want anyway), how long would it take before there was no jewish state? Cuz i mean you have millions of arabs surrounding israel that call themselves palestinians, and were they granted citizenship and voting rights, it would only be a matter of time before israel were a muslim country like all the others around it. Or should there even b a jewish state? Personally, i look at things as the way they are rather than the way they were, because just like with america, its too late for israel to just not exist, because it does.


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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:46 pm

If Palestinians were made full citizens of Israel?

Like you, I'd be surprised if Palestinians would accept citizenship if offered. They hate the Jews and hated them before Israel became a JEwish state. They dont hate Jews because Israel belongs to the Jews. They hate Jews because they are Jews.

The Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini collaborated with the Nazis and actively encouraged the extermination of Jews prior to 1948. Those people over there hated the Jews even back then! Taking Israel away from the JEwish people would not stop that hatred.

The founder of Hamas, Mahmoud al-Zahar rejects the legitimacy of the existence of Israel, demands the Right of Return and demands Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state. Further, he has justified the persecution of Jews down the ages and promised that the Jews were destined to be annihilated. And remember that Hamas wasa democratically elected by the Palastinian people.

The Arabs will never be satisfied until every Jew is dead.

So you are right...the Palastinians wouldnt want to be partners or citizens of Israel. They would love to see Jews rounded up and slaughtered and form the new nation of Palastine on their graves.


Last edited by Dennis324 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:03 pm

Miles1 wrote:Problem here is, neither side can really claim the moral high ground, as both sides have blood on their hands. The whole "Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds." only gives half the story really, given that any time Israel gained new territory it was after its neighbours had invaded it trying to wipe it off the map and it beat the shit out of them and drove them back. Plus, what Hamas is saying Israel did is exactly what they have said that they would do to Israel (and worse) given half a chance.
Thats true...but its not just Hamas. Its important to remember who put Hamas into power. They were democratically elected by the Palastinian people. And they continue to keep Hamas in power.

The People hate the jews as much as Hamas. Hamas is just doing what the Palastinian people want them to do. And they are producing propaganda films to indoctrinate a new generation.



The kids in this video today are very similar to the Old Hitler Youth. As long as this sort of stuff is going on, man nothing will change. The US cant stop their hate, nor can any other country.

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Marconius on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:58 pm

Miles1 wrote:Problem here is, neither side can really claim the moral high ground, as both sides have blood on their hands. The whole "Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds." only gives half the story really, given that any time Israel gained new territory it was after its neighbours had invaded it trying to wipe it off the map and it beat the shit out of them and drove them back. Plus, what Hamas is saying Israel did is exactly what they have said that they would do to Israel (and worse) given half a chance. And you could say that Israel effectively has Gaza under siege with the border wall, blockades etc but any time they let up on their chokehold they end up with rockets being fired at them or some palestinian getting on a bus/going into a crowded restaurant wearing a semtex waistcoat packed with nails.

On the other side of the coin, Israel's siege mentality has led to a dehumanizing of the palestinians and a situation where they're not seen to "matter" as much as israelis, so you get overkill and a willingness to accept "collateral damage" when they go into gaza to silence the rockets. Then there's the building of new settlements, which is effectively an "oil drop" strategy to try to force the palestinians off the good land, which doesn't really work if the people you're forcing of the land eventually don't have anywhere else to go. Israel seems to be trying to do to the palestinians what the american settlers did to the indians as the USA advanced west.

So, at this stage, there's not really a "right" and "wrong" left, there's just two different types of wrong. Both sides are engaging in wishful thinking that the other side will eventually go away, which won't work. There's no real way that Israel can militarily beat the insurgents short of complete genocide, and there's no way that hamas can beat israel, period. All both sides are doing at this stage is prolonging the agony, every time it looks like there may be an outbreak of sanity, some palestinian nutter martyr-wannabe with a death wish (or a hankering for his 72 virgins, same thing) lobs a few rockets/mortars across the border, the Israelis send in the apache gunships and take out a few civilians in the process, the hawks on both sides get to say "see, we told you those bastards can't be trusted" and the whole thing falls apart again.

Very rarely does anyone have the moral high ground. You pick a side based on mutual outlook and stick with the choice.........or just stay the hell outta it.

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Bryant on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:30 pm

Dennis324 wrote:
Miles1 wrote:Problem here is, neither side can really claim the moral high ground, as both sides have blood on their hands. The whole "Israel stole our homeland, murdered our people, destroyed our homes and villages, and dispersed us to the four winds." only gives half the story really, given that any time Israel gained new territory it was after its neighbours had invaded it trying to wipe it off the map and it beat the shit out of them and drove them back. Plus, what Hamas is saying Israel did is exactly what they have said that they would do to Israel (and worse) given half a chance.
Thats true...but its not just Hamas. Its important to remember who put Hamas into power. They were democratically elected by the Palastinian people. And they continue to keep Hamas in power.

The People hate the jews as much as Hamas. Hamas is just doing what the Palastinian people want them to do. And they are producing propaganda films to indoctrinate a new generation.



The kids in this video today are very similar to the Old Hitler Youth. As long as this sort of stuff is going on, man nothing will change. The US cant stop their hate, nor can any other country.

Hamas wasn't democratically elected, they violently drove out their only opposition, Fatah. If you're the only one on the ballot you can't call yourself democratically elected.
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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Sir Pun on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:11 am

Islam was created to hate jews. Cuz muhammed hated them

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Re: Some true insight into the mindset of the palestianians

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:49 pm

Bryant wrote:
Hamas wasn't democratically elected, they violently drove out their only opposition, Fatah. If you're the only one on the ballot you can't call yourself democratically elected.
They may have been the only ones on the ballot. I didnt mean it was a fair election. It was probably corrupt as heck. I mean...they are a terror group after all. Smile

That being said, the election was held and after losing the majority of its seats in parliment, rather than remaining as a minority member, it resigned all of its seats. Real smart. So there was no opposition to Hamas in Parliment. I've read since then that they had planned new elections in 2012 but I dont know if that took place.

Doesnt matter though because Fatah was closely associated with the PLO and Yassir Arafat. They maintain a number of militant groups and none that I know of have ever been sympathetic to Jews. I mean, Fatah has had militant groups like Black September, Force 17 and the Martyr's Brigade. These people hate the Jews because they are Jews.

A lot of historians and politicians think the Palestinian struggle goes back as far as 1834. But what they either ignore of fail to understand is that the Palestineans are descended from the old Biblical Canaanites, as well as Jebusites, Philistines, Amorites and many other groups that all hated the Jews in antiquity. They hated them then and they hate them today. As far as I can tell there has never been a Palestinian government or leader who had any desire to get along with the Jews or Hebrews.

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