Creationism - not just a US thing....

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Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:13 am

South Korea will remove evolution from its high school textbooks

Won't let me copy/paste the text there so you'll just have to go there and read it.. :-)

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:18 am


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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Marconius on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:02 pm

Are we not free to believe whatever we want to believe???

I personally am starting to give more and more credence to the idea that this planet was visited by higher lifeforms at some time in our past. To me it is easy to think that we mistook other lifeforms as deities.

In the end, I really don't know and to my knowledge nobody else knows either. Until such time, I will not ridicule anyone for what they choose to believe in. My self-esteem is high enough so where I do not have to tear others down to make myself feel better about my own views.

Of course I say all of this, but I do not believe that removing evolution from text books is ever the right thing to do. Life is better with choices and we make the choice of what we do and don't want to believe in.

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:09 am

Marconius wrote:Are we not free to believe whatever we want to believe???

Yup, we are, but I'll start taking creationism seriously when they produce more evidence apart from a single book that was written over 2500 years ago (and which probably wan't even peer reviewed before publishing) 👅 There's pretty much as much hard evidence to support Creationism (or its slightly more scientific version, "intelligent design") as there is to support the idea that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. At least pastafarians aren't trying to change the school curriculum... :-) And saying things like "but evolution doesn't explain XYZ" doesn't count - trying to poke holes in the theory of evolution isn't the same thing as giving hard evidence for the opposite theory.


I personally am starting to give more and more credence to the idea that this planet was visited by higher lifeforms at some time in our past. To me it is easy to think that we mistook other lifeforms as deities.

You've seen "Prometheus" then? :-) Or been watching "Ancient Aliens" on the discovery channel, with the guy with the permatan and the mad hair?




In the end, I really don't know and to my knowledge nobody else knows either. Until such time, I will not ridicule anyone for what they choose to believe in. My self-esteem is high enough so where I do not have to tear others down to make myself feel better about my own views.

True. I have no problem with people who believe in things so long as they don't try to force their beliefs down someone else's throat.


Of course I say all of this, but I do not believe that removing evolution from text books is ever the right thing to do. Life is better with choices and we make the choice of what we do and don't want to believe in.

I don't mind the whole "teach the controversy" thing so long as that is what it is, teaching both sides. What is actually happening though is instead of saying "there are many theories on where we came from, one is evolution, one is intelligent design, here are the pros and cons of both", it is turning out at best like ""there are many theories on where we came from, one is evolution, one is God created everything. Evolution is wrong, because God told us he created everything and we believe him, because he's God".

One of the things that always gets me about the whole "intelligent design vs evolution" thing as well is that they're not mutually exclusive. If there was a designer, why is is it inconceivable that they are designing things through continuous improvement? After all, no product gets made without making prototypes along the way..... And yet, most of the ID arguments say that evolution is wrong and has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Marconius on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:30 pm

Miles1 wrote:

You've seen "Prometheus" then? :-) Or been watching "Ancient Aliens" on the discovery channel, with the guy with the permatan and the mad hair?


[/quote]

I love that guy!!! His weirdness makes him one of the most entertaining people on TV. Seriously, I haven't watched too many "Ancient Aliens" episodes (maybe a 1/2 dozen). There have been many TV shows about the unexplained over the coarse of my lifetime to plant the seed in my head. "Ancient Aliens" is one of the more entertaining though. It doesn't seem to take itself too seriously.

I am offshore right now and "Prometheus" opens today. I can't wait to make it back to Santa Maria on Tuesday morning so I can be at the theater Tuesday evening. Ridley Scott makes good movies. He has a project in the works that will delve more into the "Blade Runner" subject matter. It is set to come out in 2014.

Is "Prometheus" already out over there??? Did you see it??? Without giving away too much, was it good???

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:27 pm

Marconius wrote:Are we not free to believe whatever we want to believe???

I personally am starting to give more and more credence to the idea that this planet was visited by higher lifeforms at some time in our past.
It was...I just dont believe they were little green men. Wink

Marconius wrote:Of course I say all of this, but I do not believe that removing evolution from text books is ever the right thing to do.
I agree. Evolution has its place imo. I dont mind that schools teach evolution. They should! I just mind when they ridicule and/or harrass those of us who also happen to believe in Creationism.

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Marconius on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:39 am

Miles1 wrote:

One of the things that always gets me about the whole "intelligent design vs evolution" thing as well is that they're not mutually exclusive. If there was a designer, why is is it inconceivable that they are designing things through continuous improvement? After all, no product gets made without making prototypes along the way..... And yet, most of the ID arguments say that evolution is wrong and has nothing to do with it.

I am an extreme skeptic of pretty much everything (you have prolly pieced that together after all these years). Not only am I extremely skeptical of a divine being, I am skeptical of evolution happening by chance and luck.

One of the problems I have with evolution is that it asserts a mutation over the entire species block. How exactly did the mutated gene pass through the herds quick enough so that it didn't become latent???

Supposedly evolution can happen quickly......very quickly. Why have we not seen the beginnings of change in any species other than single cell??? I know we haven't had recorded history that long, but according to recent theories, it has been long enough to see the changes beginning.

Speaking of single cell organisms. These things mutate very quickly and are very hardy. There is no need for them to even evolve into multi-cell organisms. How does that even happen anyway??? We go from amoeba to volvox. What's in between??? How does an amoeba decide it isn't gonna split and instead decides to invent sex organs??? How does a brainless volvox type lifeform decide to invent muscles, organs, and such???

Hell it doesn't even seem that we needed to get past the insect stage of evolution. Those damn things are very resilient.

It is topics like that, that keep the common, non-scientific man thinking it all might be by design.

Even though it is very plausible and I gravitate heavily towards evolution, there are many holes I need filled before I throw my entire belief into evolution's camp for good. Until then, I keep an open mind.


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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:31 am

Marconius wrote:

Is "Prometheus" already out over there??? Did you see it??? Without giving away too much, was it good???

Yeah, has been out here a few weeks already, went to see it last week. Not going to give any spoilers, but it starts great and then the plot starts just getting a bit silly coming up near the end. The last bit could only be more blatantly teeing things up for a sequel if they actually put the words "To Be Continued..." up on the screen....

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Marconius on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:52 pm

Miles1 wrote:
Marconius wrote:

Is "Prometheus" already out over there??? Did you see it??? Without giving away too much, was it good???

Yeah, has been out here a few weeks already, went to see it last week. Not going to give any spoilers, but it starts great and then the plot starts just getting a bit silly coming up near the end. The last bit could only be more blatantly teeing things up for a sequel if they actually put the words "To Be Continued..." up on the screen....

I heard rumor that the end ties this movie to the "space jockey" from alien. The same web source of that rumor said this movie shows the birth of the xenomorph species. True or false???

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:07 pm

Marconius wrote:
I heard rumor that the end ties this movie to the "space jockey" from alien. The same web source of that rumor said this movie shows the birth of the xenomorph species. True or false???

Thought you didn't want spoilers? :-P Yes to the first one, you'll have to see for the 2nd... :-P

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Bryant on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:07 pm

Miles1 wrote:
Marconius wrote:

Is "Prometheus" already out over there??? Did you see it??? Without giving away too much, was it good???

Yeah, has been out here a few weeks already, went to see it last week. Not going to give any spoilers, but it starts great and then the plot starts just getting a bit silly coming up near the end. The last bit could only be more blatantly teeing things up for a sequel if they actually put the words "To Be Continued..." up on the screen....

What would they call it, Epimetheus?
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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:19 pm

Marconius wrote:
Even though it is very plausible and I gravitate heavily towards evolution, there are many holes I need filled before I throw my entire belief into evolution's camp for good. Until then, I keep an open mind.

The way I look at it is that evolution is the best theory that you can prove and test scientifically to come along so far. Creationism/Intelligent Design doesn't count for me because there's no way that you can ever prove it either way, is something you either choose to believe in or you don't. Nearly all of the arguments "for" ID are actually arguments against evolution, like the "eye argument" (as in, evolution doesn't explain something complex like the eye because what "species advantage" does half an eye give while it is evolving). Saying that the eye "has to have been designed" doesn't count as proof unless and until you can say who designed it and how. And "proving" evolution as "wrong" doesn't automatically "prove" ID as "right", it just means that either ID or something we haven't discovered yet must be right instead.

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Marconius on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:51 pm

Miles1 wrote:

The way I look at it is that evolution is the best theory that you can prove and test scientifically to come along so far. Creationism/Intelligent Design doesn't count for me because there's no way that you can ever prove it either way, is something you either choose to believe in or you don't. Nearly all of the arguments "for" ID are actually arguments against evolution, like the "eye argument" (as in, evolution doesn't explain something complex like the eye because what "species advantage" does half an eye give while it is evolving). Saying that the eye "has to have been designed" doesn't count as proof unless and until you can say who designed it and how. And "proving" evolution as "wrong" doesn't automatically "prove" ID as "right", it just means that either ID or something we haven't discovered yet must be right instead.

ID sounds plausible, but until such time as I meet "the engineer", I ain't buying it either. I don't even know why I waste so much of my time thinking about it. The way I see it, I will find out when I'm dead. I will either continue to exist or I won't (which basically means if evolution is right, I will never know). That right there is what keeps so many hanging on to divinity. There is an old military saying, "There are no atheists in a foxhole". Most of us want to think of something else after this is over. I myself don't seem to care at the moment, but I ain't gonna kid myself. Just how am I gonna feel as the deathbed gets closer??? I watched both my atheist Father-in-law and his oldest son become believers in their last days.

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:47 pm

Amen to that. Smile

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Re: Creationism - not just a US thing....

Post by Miles1 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:21 am

Marconius wrote: I watched both my atheist Father-in-law and his oldest son become believers in their last days.

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: Why do old people read the bible so much?
A: They're studying for their finals....

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