Syria part...

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Syria part...

Post by Bryant on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:25 pm

So, Russia, Syria, US, thoughts?
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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:40 pm

Ugh...you probably saw my FB post on this already...
 

 
 
On the eve on 9/11, this president had the audacity to ask Americans side with the Syrian rebels which is comprised of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaida. Not in those words exactly, but that's what it amounts to.  He's asking us to get in bed with these crooks and using the tragic deaths of children to pull at our heartstrings. He wants us to bomb Syria with no objective in mind other than to bomb. He's given us no plan of victory, has said he doesn't support regime change....has no plan at all other than to bomb. And to send weapons and money to Al Qaida and Muslim Brotherhood rebels.
  
In the past I've occasionally tried to give Obama the benefit of the doubt on (some) things.  But I'm done with him.  Imo, he's a traitor and a danger to the United States.
  
If Congress votes for this, its our fault for not writing and calling them to tell them not to go along with this insane plan.
 
If Congress votes against this and Obama does it anyway, he should not only be impeached, but immediately arrested for aiding and abetting the enemy (Al Qaida).
  
Furthermore yesterday was the 1 year anniversary of Benghazi. The President claimed we will find and arrest the ones responsible for the killing of our ambassador. AP news and CNN both have interviewed the man primarily responsible, but still no arrests. What....the CIA and FBI cant find this guy? Bull...

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Bryant on Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:37 am

Dennis324 wrote:Ugh...you probably saw my FB post on this already...
 
Except he never wrote that. The author of the meme lied to vilify Obama. The actual quote is as follows:

"In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
 
 
On the eve on 9/11, this president had the audacity to ask Americans side with the Syrian rebels which is comprised of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaida.
While there are some elements that are Islamic extremists (Al Quida or other), that only accounts for an estimated 20% of rebels. Approximately 80% of rebel fighters are not extremists, not to mention the civilians who've suffered from Assad's depredations. He didn't ask us to support Al Quida, he asked us to oppose a ruthless dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people (if the deal Russia is trying to broker falls through).

Not in those words exactly, but that's what it amounts to.  He's asking us to get in bed with these crooks and using the tragic deaths of children to pull at our heartstrings. He wants us to bomb Syria with no objective in mind other than to bomb. He's given us no plan of victory, has said he doesn't support regime change....has no plan at all other than to bomb.
That is a valid criticism, if the administration has any clear plan it hasn't been shared with the public.

And to send weapons and money to Al Qaida and Muslim Brotherhood rebels.
Except no one has been talking about sending weapons or money to the Al Quida affiliated factions fighting in Syria. This two dimensional understanding of the conflict isn't going to get you anywhere.
  
In the past I've occasionally tried to give Obama the benefit of the doubt on (some) things.  But I'm done with him.  Imo, he's a traitor and a danger to the United States.
Since when did you even try to give Obama the benefit of the doubt? Name an instance. You've been done with him since he won the Democratic nomination. Calling him a traitor while lauding Reagan is disingenuous.
  
If Congress votes for this, its our fault for not writing and calling them to tell them not to go along with this insane plan.
I think that goes for every piece of legislation.
 
If Congress votes against this and Obama does it anyway, he should not only be impeached, but immediately arrested for aiding and abetting the enemy (Al Qaida).
You can't impeach the President for evoking the war power act. It might be horrible domestic policy, but it ain't illegal. Your second accusation is absurd, see my previous comments on the subject.
  
Furthermore yesterday was the 1 year anniversary of Benghazi. The President claimed we will find and arrest the ones responsible for the killing of our ambassador. AP news and CNN both have interviewed the man primarily responsible, but still no arrests. What....the CIA and FBI cant find this guy? Bull...
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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:21 am

Bryant wrote:
Dennis324 wrote:Ugh...you probably saw my FB post on this already...
 
Except he never wrote that.  The author of the meme lied to vilify Obama.  The actual quote is as follows:

"In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Oops...my bad I guess.  The pic above added 2 words.  The phrase 'the Muslims'.  Rolling Eyes 
 
 
On the eve on 9/11, this president had the audacity to ask Americans side with the Syrian rebels which is comprised of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaida.
While there are some elements that are Islamic extremists (Al Quida or other), that only accounts for an estimated 20% of rebels.  Approximately 80% of rebel fighters are not extremists, not to mention the civilians who've suffered from Assad's depredations.  He didn't ask us to support Al Quida, he asked us to oppose a ruthless dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people (if the deal Russia is trying to broker falls through).

Not in those words exactly, but that's what it amounts to.  He's asking us to get in bed with these crooks and using the tragic deaths of children to pull at our heartstrings. He wants us to bomb Syria with no objective in mind other than to bomb. He's given us no plan of victory, has said he doesn't support regime change....has no plan at all other than to bomb.
That is a valid criticism, if the administration has any clear plan it hasn't been shared with the public.

And to send weapons and money to Al Qaida and Muslim Brotherhood rebels.
Except no one has been talking about sending weapons or money to the Al Quida affiliated factions fighting in Syria.  This two dimensional understanding of the conflict isn't going to get you anywhere.

Wait a sec now.  He didn't actually say 'Al Qaida'.  Such a thing would be disastrous.  But as many including the NY Times have admitted, Al Qaida and other jihadists (Muslim Brotherhood) now make up much of the rebellion. I'm not convinced that only 20% of the rebel forces are comprised of Al Qaida, but assuming you are right, that's too much!!!!  There are absolutely no assurances that Al Qaida will not get those arms and money.  None.  I think Obama has omitted the fact that these arms will most likely reach Al Qaida and the Muslim Brotherhood because he knows how angry the people of this country will be if they find out.  And tonight I heard on tv that the so called remaining moderates are turning to toward the jihadists because they have no place else to turn to.

  
In the past I've occasionally tried to give Obama the benefit of the doubt on (some) things.  But I'm done with him.  Imo, he's a traitor and a danger to the United States.
Since when did you even try to give Obama the benefit of the doubt?  Name an instance.  You've been done with him since he won the Democratic nomination.  Calling him a traitor while lauding Reagan is disingenuous.

I'll do better than that.  I'll name 4. 

1. When he 1st began talking about Universal Healthcare, I didn't immediately condemn him.  I waited to hear the plan.  I'm still waiting.  And you'll note IU haven't totally condemned the plan, nor have I written my congressmen or signed any petitions to kill the plan.  2. Also I have been totally for he and Michelle's plan for healthy food in the schools.  3. Furthermore I have lauded his ability to kill terrorists with his drone program.  4.  I've praised his initiative in working with the leaders and going to summits in Latin American countries to try to improve relations between the US and those countries. 

I've praised Obama plenty of times...more times than most conservatives.  And I've taken heat for it.  So don't give me that nonsense man.

  
If Congress votes for this, its our fault for not writing and calling them to tell them not to go along with this insane plan.
I think that goes for every piece of legislation.
 
If Congress votes against this and Obama does it anyway, he should not only be impeached, but immediately arrested for aiding and abetting the enemy (Al Qaida).
You can't impeach the President for evoking the war power act.  It might be horrible domestic policy, but it ain't illegal.  Your second accusation is absurd, see my previous comments on the subject.

Umm..the War Powers Resolution of 1973 is a federal law intended to check the president's power to commit the United States to an armed conflict without the consent of Congress. The resolution was adopted in the form of a United States Congress joint resolution; this provides that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by declaration of war by Congress, "statutory authorization," or in case of "a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

Syria meets none of those conditions.  President Clinton violated the War Powers act in 1999 and Congress has never approved when a president has used it.  But none has ever successfully taken legal actions against a sitting president for using it.
  
Furthermore yesterday was the 1 year anniversary of Benghazi. The President claimed we will find and arrest the ones responsible for the killing of our ambassador. AP news and CNN both have interviewed the man primarily responsible, but still no arrests. What....the CIA and FBI cant find this guy? Bull...
 


Last edited by Dennis324 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:35 am

Actually the War Powers act and the War Powers Clause would make a good topic for discussion on its own.  A lot of people are against it, but it seems to me that it protects the nation from the possibility of a tyrant making war without the consent of the people. 

Problem is that as far as I can tell it has never been used as it was written.  Many Presidents have used the war powers act to conduct military operations or make war on other nations without the expressed consent of Congress.

I'm not certain but Ronald Reagan may have violated the terms of the War Powers act in conducting missions against Libya.  Not sure about Grenada.  Clinton went to war in Serbia and Bosnia without Congress' approval I think.  W did manage to get congressional approval to go to war in Afghanistan, but I don't remember if he got it for Iraq.  I think he did though.  I think George H Bush got Congressional approval to go to war in the 1st Gulf War though.  And i'm not sure, but I'd have to look up whether or not Nixon and Eisenhower got Congressional approval to make war in Korea and Vietnam.  Seems I recall everyone saying it was only a 'police action' back then.  Rolling Eyes

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:06 am

Remember when we were trying to work with the taliban, and make a distinction between them and al qaeda? This reminds me of that.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:07 am

Same with gettin in bed with the MB in egypt.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:35 am

Working with the Taliban?  Well see, to me there's a problem with us doing that.  Seems I remember us talking about the US sitting down to peace talks with these guys.  I never understood what could be achieved by doing that. 

Afghanistan is yet another no win situation because the people in the govt there are thugs and crooks as well.  I don't know if they are as bad as the Taliban, but it sux when we've sacrificed blood and treasure to try to help those people, only to learn that the new govt is corrupt and willing to stab us in the back as soon as its turned.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Marconius on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:08 pm

I neither wish myself or any person in my Government or military to support either faction in this conflict.

Say what you want about only 20% being AQ.......peoe who get paid to know this stuff, knows that almost all of the rebel forces are made up of extremists of one group or another.

There are no innocents there. Feel sorry for them all you want, but they would spit on you if they saw you. You gotta go there to understand that. They do not want us meddling and will hate us for doing so no matter what we do.

Why are Dems such a warmongering party??? It isn't like they serve. They just spread the BS "poor people do all the fighting for rich men" stuff. In reality most of our military are middle class, southern boys who think of themselves as "conservative". I guess the Dems have always been so quick to fight 'cause they want to thin out the young conservatives while they study thier liberal arts and drink thier Starbucks.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:50 pm

Marconius wrote:I neither wish myself or any person in my Government or military to support either faction in this conflict.

Say what you want about only 20% being AQ.......peoe who get paid to know this stuff, knows that almost all of the rebel forces are made up of extremists of one group or another.

There are no innocents there. Feel sorry for them all you want, but they would spit on you if they saw you. You gotta go there to understand that. They do not want us meddling and will hate us for doing so no matter what we do.

Why are Dems such a warmongering party??? It isn't like they serve. They just spread the BS "poor people do all the fighting for rich men" stuff. In reality most of our military are middle class, southern boys who think of themselves as "conservative". I guess the Dems have always been so quick to fight 'cause they want to thin out the young conservatives while they study thier liberal arts and drink thier Starbucks.
lol! 

They wanna save all those Syrians and make em American voters.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Bryant on Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:11 pm

Marconius wrote:I neither wish myself or any person in my Government or military to support either faction in this conflict.

Say what you want about only 20% being AQ.......peoe who get paid to know this stuff, knows that almost all of the rebel forces are made up of extremists of one group or another.

There are no innocents there. Feel sorry for them all you want, but they would spit on you if they saw you. You gotta go there to understand that. They do not want us meddling and will hate us for doing so no matter what we do.

Why are Dems such a warmongering party??? It isn't like they serve. They just spread the BS "poor people do all the fighting for rich men" stuff. In reality most of our military are middle class, southern boys who think of themselves as "conservative". I guess the Dems have always been so quick to fight 'cause they want to thin out the young conservatives while they study thier liberal arts and drink thier Starbucks.
Marconius wrote:I neither wish myself or any person in my Government or military to support either faction in this conflict.

Say what you want about only 20% being AQ.......peoe who get paid to know this stuff, knows that almost all of the rebel forces are made up of extremists of one group or another.

There are no innocents there. Feel sorry for them all you want, but they would spit on you if they saw you. You gotta go there to understand that. They do not want us meddling and will hate us for doing so no matter what we do.

Why are Dems such a warmongering party??? It isn't like they serve. They just spread the BS "poor people do all the fighting for rich men" stuff. In reality most of our military are middle class, southern boys who think of themselves as "conservative". I guess the Dems have always been so quick to fight 'cause they want to thin out the young conservatives while they study thier liberal arts and drink thier Starbucks.
They're revolutionaries, of course they're extremists. Some are secularists, some want a 'moderate' Islamist government (Turkey), and some want a totalitarian Islamist government, but they're all extremists in one way or another. I take your point that there are no innocents, its a desperate war and both sides have taken desperate, despicable actions. Assad is a monster, and some in the opposition are no better. Some in the opposition (ie FSA) want us to get involved, others don't. There are so many different groups with different objectives that it seems insincere to ascribe any central ideology to the entirety of the opposition beyond wanting Assad gone.
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Re: Syria part...

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:57 am

U do know islamists are taking overturkey right?

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Dennis324 on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:21 am

Bryant you are technically right.  Assad IS a monster and there are (some) moderates in the rebellion.  But I still have yet to see where it is in the US interest to support these people.  I believe that even these so-called moderates hate the US and Israel and will stab us in the back just like the Iraqis and Afghanis have.  I don't think they care is the US is bombed or hurt by radicals.  So I want no part of it.

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Re: Syria part...

Post by Sir Pun on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:27 am

According to new reports about half of the 100,000 rebels are jihadis or islamists.

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