What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

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What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Sir Pun on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:20 am

CAIRO — Egyptian authorities on Thursday significantly raised the death toll from clashes the previous day between police and supporters of the ousted Islamist president, saying more than 500 people died and laying bare the extent of the violence that swept much of the country and prompted the government to declare a nationwide state of emergency and a nighttime curfew.

The death toll, which stood at 525, according to the latest Health Ministry figures, makes Wednesday by far the deadliest day since the 2011 popular uprising that toppled longtime ruler and autocrat Hosni Mubarak — a grim milestone that does not bode well for the future of a nation roiled in turmoil and divisions for the past 2 1/2 years.

Health Ministry spokesman Khaled el-Khateeb put the number of the injured on Wednesday at 3,717.

Near the site of one of the smashed encampments of ousted President Mohammed Morsi's supporters in the eastern Nasr City suburb, an Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw dozens of blood soaked bodies stored inside a mosque. The bodies were wrapped in sheets and still unclaimed by families.

Relatives at the scene were uncovering the faces in an attempt to identify their loved ones. Many complained that authorities were preventing them from obtaining permits to bury them.

El-Khateeb said 202 of the 525 were killed in the Nasr City protest camp, but it was not immediately clear whether the bodies at the mosque were included in that figure.

Wednesday's violence started with riot police raiding and clearing out the two camps, sparking clashes there and elsewhere in the Egyptian capital and other cities.

Cairo, a city of some 18 million people, was uncharacteristically quiet Thursday, with only a fraction of its usually hectic traffic and many stores and government offices shuttered. Many people hunkered down at home for fear of more violence. Banks and the stock market were closed.

The latest events in Egypt drew widespread condemnation from the Muslim world and the West, including the United States, Egypt's main foreign backer for over 30 years.

Nobel Peace Prize winner Mohamed ElBaradei resigned later Wednesday as Egypt's interim vice president in protest — a blow to the new leadership's credibility with the pro-reform movement.

Interim Prime Minister Hazem el-Beblawi said in a televised address to the nation that it was a “difficult day” and that he regretted the bloodshed but offered no apologies for moving against Morsi's supporters, saying they were given ample warnings to leave and he had tried foreign mediation efforts.

The leaders of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood called it a “massacre.” Several prominent Brotherhood figures were detained as police swept through the two sit-in sites, scores of other Islamists were taken into custody, and the future of the once-banned movement was uncertain.

Backed by helicopters, police fired tear gas and used armored bulldozers to plow into the barricades at the two protest camps on opposite ends of Cairo. Morsi's supporters had been camped out since before he was ousted by a July 3 coup that followed days of mass protests by millions of Egyptians demanding that he step down.

The smaller camp — near Cairo University in Giza — was cleared of protesters relatively quickly, but it took about 12 hours for police to take control of the main sit-in site near the Rabaah al-Adawiya Mosque in Nasr City that has served as the epicenter of the pro-Morsi campaign and had drawn chanting throngs of men, women and children only days earlier.

After the police moved on the camps, street battles broke out in Cairo and other cities across Egypt. Government buildings and police stations were attacked, roads were blocked, and Christian churches were torched, Interior Minister Mohammed Ibrahim said.

At one point, protesters trapped a police Humvee on an overpass near the Nasr City camp and pushed it off, according to images posted on social networking sites that showed an injured policeman on the ground below, near a pool of blood and the overturned vehicle.

Three journalists were among the dead: Mick Deane, 61, a cameraman for British broadcaster Sky News; Habiba Ahmed Abd Elaziz, 26, a reporter for the Gulf News, a state-backed newspaper in the United Arab Emirates; and Ahmed Abdel Gawad, who wrote for Egypt's state-run newspaper Al Akhbar. Deane and Elaziz were shot to death, their employers said, while the Egyptian Press Syndicate, a journalists' union, said it had no information on how Gawad was killed.

The turmoil was the latest chapter in a bitter standoff between Morsi's supporters and the interim leadership that took over the Arab world's most populous country. The military ousted Morsi after millions of Egyptians massed in the streets at the end of June to call for him to step down, accusing him of giving the Brotherhood undue influence and failing to implement vital reforms or bolster the ailing economy.

Morsi has been held at an undisclosed location since July 3. Other Brotherhood leaders have been charged with inciting violence or conspiring in the killing of protesters.

A security official said 200 protesters were arrested at both camps. Several men could be seen walking with their hands up as they were led away by black-clad police.

The Brotherhood has spent most of the 85 years since its creation as an outlawed group or enduring crackdowns by successive governments. The latest developments could provide authorities with the grounds to once again declare it an illegal group and consign it to the political wilderness.

In his televised address, el-Beblawi said the government could not indefinitely tolerate a challenge to authority that the 6-week-old protests represented.

“We want to see a civilian state in Egypt, not a military state and not a religious state,” he said.

But the resignation of ElBaradei, the former head of the U.N. nuclear agency and a figure widely respected by Western governments, was the first crack to emerge in the government as a result of the violence.

ElBaradei had made it clear in recent weeks that he was against the use of force to end the protests. At least 250 people have died in previous clashes since the coup that ousted Morsi, Egypt's first freely elected president.

On Wednesday, his letter of resignation to interim President Adly Mansour carried an ominous message to a nation already torn by more than two years of turmoil.

“It has become difficult for me to continue to take responsibility for decisions I disapprove of, and I fear their consequences,” he said in the letter that was emailed to The Associated Press. “I cannot take responsibility before God, my conscience and country for a single drop of blood, especially because I know it was possible to spare it.

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Dennis324 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:37 pm

Both sides somehow want to blame the United States for their problems.  This comes from interfering in their business for so long.  Yesterday (I think) the President gave a statement from his luxurious vacation in the Hamptons.  The thing that stood out to me is when he implied that we cant continue to business with Egypt as long as there continue to be human rights violations, etc.  Or words to that effect.  The implication was that the billions in aid we've been giving them might stop.

Best news I've heard in years!!!!  We need to stop paying tribute...yes tribute, to these countries that hate us and hate our strongest ally in Israel.  Basically we've been paying Egypt tribute to keep them from closing the Suez canal and to keep them from invading Israel.

People used to pay tribute to the ancient Persian Empire.  (Iran today). Various ancient states exacted tribute from the rulers of land which the state conquered or otherwise threatened to conquer.

That's exactly what the United States is doing now.  We aren't giving them humanitarian aid and food.  We're paying the Egyptian govt tribute.

We need to stop this.  Israel can normally take care of herself and we should stand by them because they help us in soooo many ways.  Cant think of any Muslim nations that comes close to being as good a friend to us as Israel.

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Bryant on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:51 am

Dennis324 wrote:Both sides somehow want to blame the United States for their problems.  This comes from interfering in their business for so long.  Yesterday (I think) the President gave a statement from his luxurious vacation in the Hamptons.  The thing that stood out to me is when he implied that we cant continue to business with Egypt as long as there continue to be human rights violations, etc.  Or words to that effect.  The implication was that the billions in aid we've been giving them might stop.

Best news I've heard in years!!!!  We need to stop paying tribute...yes tribute, to these countries that hate us and hate our strongest ally in Israel.  Basically we've been paying Egypt tribute to keep them from closing the Suez canal and to keep them from invading Israel.

People used to pay tribute to the ancient Persian Empire.  (Iran today). Various ancient states exacted tribute from the rulers of land which the state conquered or otherwise threatened to conquer.

That's exactly what the United States is doing now.  We aren't giving them humanitarian aid and food.  We're paying the Egyptian govt tribute.

We need to stop this.  Israel can normally take care of herself and we should stand by them because they help us in soooo many ways.  Cant think of any Muslim nations that comes close to being as good a friend to us as Israel.
If the military aid we give to Egypt to combat terrorists and Islamic extremists is a tribute, what do you call the money we give to Israel? Or is it different because they're jews not muslims?
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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Bryant on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:52 am

I wonder if the cooperation between Israel and Egypt that we saw the other week (Egypt allowing the Israeli drone strike) has any relation to this.
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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Marconius on Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:15 pm

Tell me why we need to get ourselves involved in this mess. Let them sort it out. If the people want freedom, they will fight for it. If they want tyranny, they will allow it.

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:13 pm

But we're already involved. This admin not only quickly encouraged the ouster of mubarak, but has since backed both sides. First the muslim brotherhood, and the whole time the military, with the majority of our money going to it. So of course both sudes blame us. Obama foreign policy...

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Bryant on Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:14 pm

Sir Pun wrote:But we're already involved. This admin not only quickly encouraged the ouster of mubarak, but has since backed both sides. First the muslim brotherhood, and the whole time the military, with the majority of our money going to it. So of course both sudes blame us. Obama foreign policy...
Go back and read the history and the lead up to the ouster of Mubarak. Obama was anything but quick. The GOP critisized him for dragging his feet then, and now they're at him for having acted too fast!
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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Marconius on Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:00 pm

Bryant wrote:
Sir Pun wrote:But we're already involved. This admin not only quickly encouraged the ouster of mubarak, but has since backed both sides. First the muslim brotherhood, and the whole time the military, with the majority of our money going to it. So of course both sudes blame us. Obama foreign policy...
Go back and read the history and the lead up to the ouster of Mubarak.  Obama was anything but quick.  The GOP critisized him for dragging his feet then, and now they're at him for having acted too fast!
Actually Bryant, what you wrote is not quite true. The truth wasn't the GOP being pissed at inaction. That is spinning it. They were upset because Big O choose to support the MB.

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Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Yeah either short memory or just an entire delusion. Im mean he had to be drug by the europeans into libya at the last minute, but said mubarak had to go within just several days of "arab spring" protests, and immediately the admin went on the defense of the MB and their meetings with them, and their support

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:14 pm

Bryant wrote:
Dennis324 wrote:Both sides somehow want to blame the United States for their problems.  This comes from interfering in their business for so long.  Yesterday (I think) the President gave a statement from his luxurious vacation in the Hamptons.  The thing that stood out to me is when he implied that we cant continue to business with Egypt as long as there continue to be human rights violations, etc.  Or words to that effect.  The implication was that the billions in aid we've been giving them might stop.

Best news I've heard in years!!!!  We need to stop paying tribute...yes tribute, to these countries that hate us and hate our strongest ally in Israel.  Basically we've been paying Egypt tribute to keep them from closing the Suez canal and to keep them from invading Israel.

People used to pay tribute to the ancient Persian Empire.  (Iran today). Various ancient states exacted tribute from the rulers of land which the state conquered or otherwise threatened to conquer.

That's exactly what the United States is doing now.  We aren't giving them humanitarian aid and food.  We're paying the Egyptian govt tribute.

We need to stop this.  Israel can normally take care of herself and we should stand by them because they help us in soooo many ways.  Cant think of any Muslim nations that comes close to being as good a friend to us as Israel.
If the military aid we give to Egypt to combat terrorists and Islamic extremists is a tribute, what do you call the money we give to Israel?  Or is it different because they're jews not muslims?
Is that why we're giving them money?  I really don't think so.  I think we give them money to keep the Suez canal open to keep gas prices down.  Hows that working so far?  Also, how much money is Europe ponying up to do the same?
 
Also I think the money is being given as tribute in part to keep Egypt from invading and waging war on Israel.  Jimmy Carter got Anwar Sadat and Menechem Begin to come to the table and negotiate a peace treaty.  As part of the agreement, the U.S. began economic and military aid to Egypt, and political backing for its subsequent governments.
 
That aid has practically nothing to do with terrorists.
 
And yes...it is different because the people we are dealing with are Muslim...mostly radical Isalmists now.


Last edited by Dennis324 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:19 pm

Bryant wrote:I wonder if the cooperation between Israel and Egypt that we saw the other week (Egypt allowing the Israeli drone strike) has any relation to this.
I suspect that it likely.  The army of Egypt has apparently moved many troops into the Sinai with Israel permission.  This is the 1st time this has been allowed since the peace treaty of the 80s. 

I thought I heard that Israel doesn't want us to stop making payments to Israel.  It is part of the peace treaty as I mentioned before.  But personally I think we ought to renegotiate our part of that treaty especially in light of what is happening now.  We had a treaty with the Mubarak govt.  That govt has been overthrown.  Now, the subsequent govt has also been overthrown and the place is in chaos.  Should we continue to give arms and equipment and billions in aid to a people who have called for Israel to be driven into the sea?
 
I'm sorry, but in this particular case, I would support Obama (I hate to say it) in stopping all tribute to Egypt.

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Bryant on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:30 pm

Dennis324 wrote:
Bryant wrote:I wonder if the cooperation between Israel and Egypt that we saw the other week (Egypt allowing the Israeli drone strike) has any relation to this.
I suspect that it likely.  The army of Egypt has apparently moved many troops into the Sinai with Israel permission.  This is the 1st time this has been allowed since the peace treaty of the 80s. 

I thought I heard that Israel doesn't want us to stop making payments to Israel.  It is part of the peace treaty as I mentioned before.  But personally I think we ought to renegotiate our part of that treaty especially in light of what is happening now.  We had a treaty with the Mubarak govt.  That govt has been overthrown.  Now, the subsequent govt has also been overthrown and the place is in chaos.  Should we continue to give arms and equipment and billions in aid to a people who have called for Israel to be driven into the sea?
 
I'm sorry, but in this particular case, I would support Obama (I hate to say it) in stopping all tribute to Egypt.
How can you say that these people have called for Israel to be driven into the sea when they're the ones working to tighten they're cooperation with Israel? You can't just assume that its a Muslim country so it must be the same as Iran. There are several Arab countries that have working relations with both the US and Israel, of which Egypt is one (especially now that the Brotherhood is out of power).
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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Sir Pun on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:04 am

The MB does share a stance tiward israel similar to most islamic groups.

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Miles1 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:08 am

Dennis324 wrote:
I thought I heard that Israel doesn't want us to stop making payments to Israel. 
Am assuming that was a typo and you meant "payments to egypt" - am sort of guessing israel would be in favour of getting money themselves :-P

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Sir Pun on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 am

Pretty much a gimme

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Re: What a fine mess we involved ourselves in

Post by Dennis324 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:43 pm

Miles1 wrote:
Dennis324 wrote:
I thought I heard that Israel doesn't want us to stop making payments to Israel. 
Am assuming that was a typo and you meant "payments to egypt" - am sort of guessing israel would be in favour of getting money themselves :-P
Oops.  Yep...payments to Egypt.  Smile

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