Egypt unrest

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Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:03 am

American killed in Egypt, US warns against travel there

An American citizen was killed in Alexandria, Egypt, the scene of violent clashes between supporters and opponents of President Mohammed Morsi, the State Department confirmed Friday.

Andrew Pochter, 21, a student at Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio, was one of three people killed Friday in clashes between competing camps trying to show their strength before even bigger nationwide protests planned by the opposition Sunday.

Pochter was in Egypt as an intern with AMIDEAST, an American nonprofit engaged in education, training and development activities in the region, according to a statement released by Kenyon College early Saturday.

A medical official told The Associated Press that he died of gunshot wounds at a hospital. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

Earlier Friday, the Obama administration warned Americans against all but essential travel to Egypt, where further demonstrations are planned this weekend.
It also said it would allow some nonessential staff and the families of personnel at the U.S. embassy in Cairo to leave Egypt until conditions improve.

The Cairo International Airport was flooded with departing passengers, an exodus that officials said was unprecedented. All flights departing Friday to Europe, the U.S. and the Gulf were fully booked, they said.


So glad we just sent these guys billions of dollars, and hundreds of tanks and planes. Particularly when their politicians have open mike moments confessingthat the us is their enemy.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:24 am

Its so odd that this administration continues to offer aid to these groups.  Aid to the rebels in Syria (Muslim Brotherhood), and aid to Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood).  Yet both of these groups hate us and hate Israel.  Sure, they'll take our money and use our power...but make no mistake, to them we are still the enemy.

Add to that the post made about the Muslim radical visiting the WH a few days ago.  I look at these things, and then remember the snub the WH has given Netanyahu and Israel and I think a trend is developing.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:12 am

Remember how quick obama was to say mubarak had to go, when all the protesting originally began during the arab spring? Well tehrir square is packed with protesters again, and 22 million evyptians have signed a petition for morsi to step down, yet we're not hearing a peep from obama now. I personally think we're too far in bed with the muslim brotherhood, trying to use it to "counter the al qaeda narrative," as if al qEda is the only terrorist group in the world.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Bryant on Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:53 am

Sir Pun wrote:Remember how quick obama was to say mubarak had to go, when all the protesting originally began during the arab spring? Well tehrir square is packed with protesters again, and 22 million evyptians have signed a petition for morsi to step down, yet we're not hearing a peep from obama now. I personally think we're too far in bed with the muslim brotherhood, trying to use it to "counter the al qaeda narrative," as if al qEda is the only terrorist group in the world.

Um, do you actually remember what happened? Obama was criticized by both the left and the right for not taking sides until the writing was on the wall. Mind your history. The only reason the Muslim Brotherhood ever came to power was that the revolutionaries weren't sufficiently organized during the initial election (there were dozens of candidates from the revolutionary groups, who split the vote and allowed the Muslim Brotherhood candidate and a former Mubarak aid to make it to the primary).

So whats the worst that can happen with this second uprising? The Muslim Brotherhood already has control!

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:08 pm

No, he was criticized for never supporting the green movement in iran. He was criticized for waiting too long before getting involved in libya. He was pretty damn quick to throw mubarak under the bus, and has been more than eager to work with the MB ever since. But see, your prob is that you werent listenin to us conservs who were warning what the outcome would be in egypt, libya, and now syria.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:09 pm

And lets not forget his connections to the MB and other america hating islamic groups like nation of islam, as all me tioned in marcs "just so happened" thread

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Marconius on Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:50 am

Sir Pun wrote:No, he was criticized for never supporting the green movement in iran. He was criticized for waiting too long before getting involved in libya. He was pretty damn quick to throw mubarak under the bus, and has been more than eager to work with the MB ever since. But see, your prob is that you werent listenin to us conservs who were warning what the outcome would be in egypt, libya, and now syria.

Pretty much everyone but Big O's supporters were loudly warning and predicting an MB take over. We were demonized, minimalized, and pushed aside. We were the "crazy and misinformed".

That IS history and should be minded. Pretty soon, Big O's supporters are gonna get tired of being wrong every single time. Course it will take years for them to admit it.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:48 am

And if they do, its our fault, not his. I still remember brennan before convress talking about how the MB were moderates, and yadda yadda, basically trying to pitch them as the ones we need to work with. And after they came to power, nothing changed. They still get the deals put in place under mubarak. They meet at the white house. Give them weapons.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:12 am

Egyptian military gives morsi 48hrs to step down. Pres obama called morsi, but hes not taking sides (shocker).

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:02 am

Sir Pun wrote:No, he was criticized for never supporting the green movement in iran. He was criticized for waiting too long before getting involved in libya. He was pretty damn quick to throw mubarak under the bus, and has been more than eager to work with the MB ever since. But see, your prob is that you werent listenin to us conservs who were warning what the outcome would be in egypt, libya, and now syria.
 
 Actually that's what I thought too.  He didn't lift a finger in Iran as far as I can tell.  In Egypt he did turn his back on Mubarak.

 Of course, I'm sorta thinking maybe it was a good thing he didn't get involved in Iran.  Wish he'd stay out of all of these uprisings unless they affect us or our allies.  With Egypt, the only 2 things I really worry about are Israel and the Suez Canal.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:59 am

Yeah, but how about at least cheering them on.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:15 pm

Honestly, my feelings on this are that as long as those militant groups are focused on one another, they are less likely to focus on us.  So let em quarrel.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:26 pm

Be that as it may, the ayatollahs gotta go, and i dont see any others groups as being worse than whats there now. Iran is the real threat, dont get distracted from that.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:45 pm

True.  How should the Ayatollah's be removed though?

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Miles1 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:46 pm

Looks like Morsi is gone...


Egypt's President Mohamed Morsi has been ousted from power by the army, sparking scenes of wild celebration around the country.

Fresh elections will now be held, after Morsi was told he was no longer head of state.

The army presented a roadmap for reconciliation, calling for temporary suspension of the constitution and the institution of a technocrat government.

Huge crowds, of supporters of the president and opponents of his regime, had gathered throughout the country.

The general who removed Morsi had been appointed defence minister by the President just six months ago.

An aide to Morsi said he had been removed to an undisclosed location, the AP News Agency reported.

It follows the passing of an army-imposed deadline, which expired at 3pm UK time, for Morsi to solve the crisis.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:58 pm

Those folks over there are gonna have to give up on the idea of a theocracy and come up with a western-style constitution.  Failing this, they may as well go back to the days of the Pharos.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:43 am

So is egyptian independence day july 4th now? Copy cats...

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:44 am

Btw, dont think this over just yet. I see a struggle between the military and MB coming. Egypt is still divided.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Miles1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:16 am

Sir Pun wrote:So is egyptian independence day july 4th now? Copy cats...

So independence day for them will be less beer, more fireworks?

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:08 pm

Well, radical Muslims dislike alcohol and love things that explode it seems.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Miles1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:21 am

Saw this today:

Yet Another Instance of Islamic Exceptionalism?

Tanks rolled down the street, state owned TV channels were taken over, dissenting media outlets were raided and silenced, president's office was surrounded, the first ever democratically elected president was put under house arrest, the constitution was suspended, and the head of army stood in front of cameras to try to justify these disgraceful deeds. As a citizen of Turkey, a country that has endured four military coups, these scenes were all too familiar; what has been taking place in Egypt was clear and obvious: a coup d'état.

The Politics of Naming a Coup (not) a Coup

Yet, the leaders of "democratic" countries did not describe the events in Egypt as a coup. The United States, which ostensibly squandered a great deal of finances and shed blood all in the name of "democracy" in greater Middle East and North Africa, failed to use "c" word. President Obama went to great lengths not to denote the events as what they really were: coup d'état. The U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs Chairman Ed Royce went even a step further by putting the blame for this coup squarely on the shoulders of the ousted president Morsi, without so much as a mention of the misdeeds of the military.

Likewise, the EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton refrained from using the "c" word in her statement on the overthrow of Morsi. In addition, her statement did not indicate any possible repercussions against the military's grab of power from elected civilians. Reflecting the EU's this stance, Marietje Schaake, a member of European Parliament representing the Democrat 66 Party from the Netherlands, in her interview with Egyptian AhramOnline on July 4, shied away from condemning the ousting of a democratically elected president. She rather chose to ignore the coup that had taken place only a day before. Instead, she deemed it too urgent to articulate upon the technical aspects of the EU's assistance to Egypt and how to defreeze EU's 5 billion Euros financial assistance and loan program for the country, which was mostly frozen during the Morsi's presidency.

These two statements were in clear breach of the EU's stated policy of democracy promotion in neighboring countries. Since 1990s, the EU has developed frameworks such as, Barcelona Process, European Neighborhood Policy (ENP), Euro - Mediterranean Partnership (EMP), in order to forge better relations with Middle Eastern and North African countries and to encourage them to pursue democratization, good governance and to uphold civil liberties. Yet, the EU's thus far reactions to the military coup's crushing of a fledgling democracy, no matter how imperfect it had been, in the most populous Arab country has not only discredited all of its policy and parlance of democratization, it has also risked making the distrust between the EU and Islamic-leaning movements in the region entrenched. Unless there is a major reevaluation of the EU stance on the military coup, the relations will be irreparably damaged.

This refusal to call a coup a coup has not been limited to the official circles. A significant part of the international media, pundits, and analysts also followed suit by not labeling the events as coup or condemning them. But why were the pundits so reluctant in defining the new millenium's first televised coup by its name? Have we not all been applauding the irresistible shift towards democratization world-wide? Was not the Arab Spring a welcome development similar to the ones that had taken place in Central and Eastern Europe in 1989 - 1990? Then, why is this Egyptian exceptionalism?

Why do democracies remain silent as the Egyptian Military crashes a nascent democracy?

Many analysts strove to offer justification for their either outright or tacit support for this coup, or reluctance to speak out against it. One of the most commonly cited justifications has been that this military intervention has received a significant popular support, hence could not be regarded as a coup d'etat. Yet a cursory examination of history of military coups would reveal that there is nothing new in military coups receiving popular support. As Jackson Diehl rightly pointed out in his Washington Post op-ed over the past half-century military coups in countries as diverse as Argentina and Thailand also received large popular supports. In a similar vein, after military coup of 1980 in Turkey, military-drafted constitution was approved in a referendum by more than 90% of votes. However, neither the public support for military to wage a coup nor public approval of their deeds disqualified their actions from being labeled for what they exactly were: "coup d'état". Therefore, the 'public support' pretext is a feckless explanation for not denoting the event as a coup in Egypt.

The excessive emphasis on the identity of the president and the characteristics of the party, in the international media and analysts' discourse, seems to indicate the real reason for condoning the coup. Finding an article that did not attempt to justify the military takeover of the Morsi government by references to his and his party's Islamist identity and a detailed account of all the mistakes they made, supposedly due to their Islamist politics, has become a mission impossible. For some, this whole affair represented the confirmation of their long-held belief regarding the incompatibility of Islam and democracy. They eagerly spelled out the failure of Political Islam in playing by the rules of an open and democratic political system.

Yet such a judgment is not only problematic because it adopts an essentialist approach to both democracy and religion, but also because it conflates liberalism with democracy. Moreover, this approach overlooks the real issue facing the Middle Eastern and North African states: the inability and incompatibility of secularists to comply by the rules of an open, freely contested, and democratic political system.

Why is secularism incompatible with democracy?

First, the perennial debate on incompatibility between Islam and democracy has been a flawed one. This debate adopts an essentialist approach to both democracy and religion. It accounts for the existence of a functioning democracy more through the specific cultural, civilizational and religious codes than through the existence of strong and independent institutions, rules of law, and political experience. This (Euro-centric) view does not only conflict with the universal claims of democracy, but it has been discredited by the political experience of different people from around the world. This approach first assumed that democracy was essentially and exclusively European due to its unique mix of cultural, civilizational and religious factors, thus it could not take root anywhere but the European-western world. This stance assumed that other regions, cultures or religions were impervious to democratization due to their exceptional circumstances and religious and cultural values, which were deemed to be incommensurate with democratic values.

This unsubstantiated belief has been progressively challenged by the experiences of different countries and cultures with democracy. As countries like Taiwan and Japan proved that there was no Asian exceptionalism, Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia defied the purported Islamic exceptionalism. In the face of these challenges, yet another exceptionalism has been suggested: Arab exceptionalism. Yet the revolutions in the Arab World rendered this latest form of exceptionalism obsolete as well. Thus, these experiences illustrated that Asians, Muslims and Arabs were no different in their demands for representative democracy and dignity than their European and American peers.

Second, when pundits question the compatibility of Islam and democracy, what they actually mean is whether Islam is compatible with liberalism. Given that Islamist movements are usually the best organized groups at the societal level in the countries they operate and that they share the value systems of the public at large, they have no qualms about electoral democracy--a stance they eagerly proved by seizing every opportunity for free and fair elections. In this respect, it becomes clear that what is meant by this question of compatibility is whether Islamists are ready to accommodate liberal demands and different (secular) life styles. Due to the fact that vast majority of Arab-Muslim countries has been governed by secular authoritarian regimes, we have not had a real chance to observe to what extent the Islamist movements are capable and willing to accommodate different demands and life styles. The only meaningful case that can be examined belongs to Turkey's Islamic leaning governing Justice and Development Party (AK Party).

This experience provides a case for optimism. Despite the imperfect nature of its over a decade rule and the need for further opening the public and political sphere for different demands, identities, and perspectives, Turkey's political and public sphere have become more pluralist during this period than it had been under the Kemalist-secular establishment. However, this does not mean that Islamist movements will play no role in shaping what is acceptable in the public sphere, neither it means that the public sphere should solely be defined by liberal principles. Islamists, for that matter socialists or any other ideologies, have as much right as liberals to shape the public sphere with their own value systems.

Third, contrary to widespread assumption, it is the secularist elites and establishments that demonstrate incompatibility with democracy in the Middle East and North Africa. This region has not witnessed Islamists' halting or crushing democratic processes. In fact, one may argue that the only exception might be the Iranian election of 2009 on a minor scale. Yet, the region witnessed many instances of secularist establishment's and elites' crushing of democratic processes: four coups by secular military - establishment in Turkey, Algerian army's crushing of Islamic Salvation Front in 1992 election to prevent them from coming to power through democratic elections, Egyptian army's present day crushing of a fledgling democratic experiment. Likewise, in Syria, it is again the secularist Baathist regime that stifles peoples' demands for freedom, democracy, and economic well-being. This raises the question as to why Middle Eastern and North African secularists demonstrate this inability to reconcile with democratic processes?

Renowned scholar Jose Casanova's following observations are imperative in understanding this dilemma. "One wonders whether democracy does not become an impossible "game" when potential majorities are not allowed to win elections, and when secular civilian politicians ask the military to come to the rescue of democracy by banning these potential majorities, which threaten their secular identity and their power." This observation does not only aptly capture the crux of challenges to the democratization in the region, it also elucidates why Middle Eastern and North African secularists prove unable to comply with democratic rules and procedures. Thus, the search for Islamist-proof democracy makes democracy itself a mission impossible to accomplish.

The Islamist identity of Morsi and his party seems to be the major reason for the reticence of the international community and media in defining this coup a coup! The future of democracy and upholding of rights and liberties of the citizens in the Middle East and North Africa are significantly contingent upon whether Islamists would be allowed to run in fair elections and rule, if they win. If we do not want Essam el Haddad's words "...the message will resonate throughout the Muslim world loud and clear: democracy is not for Muslims" to form the mindset of new generation of Islamists in the region, then it is imperative to take a stance against this coup, which has the potential to stifle the emerging democratic experiments of the Arab Spring.

Makes an interesting point: so a democratic election in the middle east (or anywhere outside of the US/Europe) only seems to count if the "right" party wins? Like when Hamas won the elections in Palestine?

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:42 am

Would like to think our military would do the same if the prez suspended the constitution.

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Dennis324 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:33 pm

Its a good point.  I wonder how fair those elections really were?  I'm also curious as to what Great Britain's pov is on this whole Egypt thing.  Bet they don't want to invest billions into that sinking ship.

For some reason, both parties of the US has a history of sinking tons and tons of money overseas...giving them to people who hate our guts!  In ancient times, this was called paying "tribute".  The US is paying tribute to Egypt, Pakistan and other nations that would love to see us fall.

Does Great Britain or France or Germany do this?

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Marconius on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Miles1 wrote:
Sir Pun wrote:So is egyptian independence day july 4th now? Copy cats...

So independence day for them will be less beer, more fireworks?

Oooohhhh.....that is just so wrong:D 

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Re: Egypt unrest

Post by Sir Pun on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:00 am

You guys hear that the pakistani prez said his countries relationship with china was "sweet as honey"?

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