Where I Live

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Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:17 pm

Eastern Oregon county bans U.N., frees trees for taking, notwithstanding applicable federal laws - Rebels With a Vote Vent Anger With Government

By JOHN ENDERS

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 
Published in the Herald-Republic on Saturday, June 1, 2002


JOHN DAY, Ore. -- Removed from the hassle of urban life, residents of this eastern Oregon ranch and timber region are a self-reliant lot. Hard winters and a depressed economy have forged hardscrabble attitudes toward outsiders and "the government."

Grant County voters have raised eyebrows by passing two ballot measures on May 21, Oregon's primary day.

One bans the United Nations in Grant County; the other would let local residents cut trees on federal land, whether or not the U.S. Forest Service says it's legal or environmentally acceptable.

The two measures -- passed by about 2-to-1 margins -- arise from anger and frustration felt by many residents who sense they no longer control their lives, their livelihoods or the land.

"We intend to push the limit, push the envelope on this," said Dave Traylor, a stocky, bearded jack-of-all-trades who helped write the measures.

Home to about 7,500 people, Grant County is a a place where cowboy hats, hay farms and horse trailers are ubiquitous, where the high school teams are the "Prospectors," and the two local radio stations play either Christian or country music.

The county covers an area about the size of Connecticut. More than 60 percent of that land is managed by the federal government. The jobless rate, 13.5 percent, is the second-highest in Oregon.

Backers of the two measures passed by voters on May 21 blame federal timber policies and environmental restrictions which they say are keeping them off public lands that had given them jobs as loggers, mill workers and ranchers.

It is the latest conflict to arise in the West with federal authorities.

In San Bernardino County, Calif., ranchers chafing at cattle grazing restrictions imposed to protect the threatened desert tortoise were supported recently by Sheriff Gary Penrod, who canceled an agreement that gave Bureau of Land Management officers authority to enforce state laws on federal land.

In the Klamath Basin, on the Oregon-California border, farmers and others last year had tense confrontations with the Bureau of Reclamation over its decision to give irrigation water to endangered fish rather than farmers.

Also last year, residents in northeast Nevada defied the Forest Service by attempting to rebuild a washed-out stretch of road in Elko County, work the Forest Service had ruled would threaten the bull trout. The confrontation lasted months.

In Grant County , the degree of frustration was reflected in the votes.

The measure banning the United Nations from Grant County passed 1,326-959; the measure saying that local residents are allowed to harvest timber on federal land passed 1,512-745. Of the county's 4,591 eligible voters, 53 percent cast ballots.

Sherry Dress is a homeopath and midwife who also runs a natural food store in John Day, a town of 1,830 named for a member of the John Jacob Astor overland expedition of 1811-12.

Dress' view is fairly common in Grant County: The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents.

"They look at it as vigilante stuff. It's not. We're a morally committed, Christian society," Dress said.

"We're not a bunch of right-wing wackos," said 66-year-old Herb Brusman, another organizer of the measures.

Supporters hope to push the Forest Service into allowing more logging. They say millions of board feet of timber could be salvaged simply by allowing people to cut those big ponderosa pines and firs that are hazards.

"If we could just address salvage on the dead, dying and blowdown, we could provide a lot of trees to the mills," said Traylor.

Dennis Reynolds , who as Grant County judge serves as its chief administrator, said something has to be done to help the people of his county.

"I wish the general public would just understand what these people are going through in terms of rules and regulations. It just never ends," Reynolds said.

He said the county government likely will endorse a plan to allow residents to cut dead, dying and wind-damaged trees on federal land.

"The question now is, what is the federal government going to do?" he said. "These people are lashing out in the only way they can. Now we have people willing to go to jail over this issue."

Roger Williams, deputy supervisor of the Malheur National Forest, which manages more than 1 million acres of forested land in the county, hopes to avoid conflict.

"We're looking into what we can do to relieve some of the pressure that led these people to put this measure on the ballot," said Williams.

The other measure -- the one banning the United Nations from Grant County -- is an embarrassment to some people in the county.

The measure states that the United Nations wants to take away people's guns, seize private property, control the education of children and establish "one world religion-Pantheism (and) world taxation."

Stacie Holmstrom, 35, a lifelong John Day resident, said the measure blasting the United Nations was too radical.

"I thought that was a real extreme idea," she said. "Grant County sometimes has that stigma anyway -- that we're 'out there' -- and this is just going to add to that."

But there are others in the county who profess to believe the claims made by the measure.

Road signs proclaiming Grant County a "UN-free zone" are going up.

"The U.N. scares me. If anything ever got bad, we could have foreigners here controlling us," said John Day painter and muralist Patricia Ross, 55.

Voters in La Terkin, Utah, next year will see a similar anti-U.N. measure on the ballot. But William Luers, a former U.S. ambassador and now president of the United Nations Association of the USA, said the anti-U.N. sentiment is absurd.

"The United Nations absolutely has no capacity, resources or forces to take over anything in the world," Luers said.

Bud Trowbridge, whose grandfather settled here in John Day in 1862, said he's ready to use force to protect his property from the United Nations.

"We're trying to avoid a fight. But we still got our guns," he said.

Some locals worry that those kinds of sentiments could hurt Grant County's image.

"Grant County has become the laughing stock of Oregon," said Tammy Bremner, who as a city official has been trying to promote tourism as a basis of economic development.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:23 pm

"The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents."

My favorite part of the article that says a lot about the locals.  This article was written during George Bush's first term.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:34 am

Bryant wrote:"The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents."

My favorite part of the article that says a lot about the locals.  This article was written during George Bush's first term.

Politically, there is no difference between GWB and Big O. Looking back at GWB's tenure, it is easy to see that he was a big government, "radical" type president.

I do love how some are actually "looking down their nose" at people while making fun of those very same people who believe others are "looking down their nose" at them........that is actual irony. Believing one is better than some, does not actually make one better than those some. In fact it is quite the opposite.

Fact of the matter is, I do not agree with the measures allowing locals to cut down trees willy-nilly. Even though I do believe the Feds aquired too much land out west, cutting trees willy-nilly is never a good thing. This isn't a black/white issue. It is a muddled shade of gray.

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Dennis324 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:55 am

Bryant wrote:"The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents."

My favorite part of the article that says a lot about the locals.  This article was written during George Bush's first term.

Umm...we're finding out this isn't too far from the truth.  The GOP appears to be rife with RINOs.  I wouldn't say ultra radical liberals, but progressive enough that some aren't exactly Conservative (ie...Olympia Snow, John McCain, etc).

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:17 pm

Dennis324 wrote:
Bryant wrote:"The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents."

My favorite part of the article that says a lot about the locals.  This article was written during George Bush's first term.

Umm...we're finding out this isn't too far from the truth.  The GOP appears to be rife with RINOs.  I wouldn't say ultra radical liberals, but progressive enough that some aren't exactly Conservative (ie...Olympia Snow, John McCain, etc).

The Bush Administration's land management policies were very...pro business.  They forced their agencies to manage more for economics than ecology (ie cut all the trees, divert the rivers, and run cattle anywhere there is forage, to hell with wildlife).
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:42 pm

Marconius wrote:
Bryant wrote:"The government is dominated by "ultra radical liberal people" who look down their noses at the concerns of local residents."

My favorite part of the article that says a lot about the locals.  This article was written during George Bush's first term.

Politically, there is no difference between GWB and Big O. Looking back at GWB's tenure, it is easy to see that he was a big government, "radical" type president.

I do love how some are actually "looking down their nose" at people while making fun of those very same people who believe others are "looking down their nose" at them........that is actual irony. Believing one is better than some, does not actually make one better than those some. In fact it is quite the opposite.

Fact of the matter is, I do not agree with the measures allowing locals to cut down trees willy-nilly. Even though I do believe the Feds aquired too much land out west, cutting trees willy-nilly is never a good thing. This isn't a black/white issue. It is a muddled shade of gray.

As per my response to Dennis, there is a huge difference in land management/exploitation policy, which is what they were trying to get at.  From what I've seen, there is an instinctive knee jerk reaction to anything viewed as 'environmentalist.'  Some malicious individual strung fishing wire tied to trees across some of the Forest roads the other week (a rancher on his quad got a little cut up), and the locals instantly blamed environmentalists (despite an utter lack of evidence). 

As for the extent of Federal land in the western United States, part of it is desert that no one wants (mostly administered by the BLM) and the other part is mostly forest that no one claimed by the late 1800's.  The National Forests are popular recreation destination for both liberals and conservatives (hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, 4x4, OHV, OSV, swimming, etc).  Any attempt to privatize the Forest would be met with entrenched opposition by all sides of the political spectrum.  Public lands are deeply culturally entrenched out here.

As a side note, here is an example of how the large private forests are managed out here:

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:52 pm

Maybe, just maybe, environmentalists would have a better rep if they didn't brow beat people with their political cloat.Maybe if they actually cared about the environment instead of just hating industry, they would have a better rep. Maybe if the field reps actually knew something about their job and weren't some liberal arts puke, they would have a better rep. Maybe if they pushed for......and I will use those words that are oh-so popular with the progs......"common sense" regulations instead of the inflexible ones that target only the industries they hate, they would have a better rep.

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:01 pm

But enough about environmentalists.

BLM's are great.......unless you are the states like Alaska, Utah and Nevada. I mean are you really happy to say "Hey guys, I know our federal constitution says you have domain within the confines of your state, but we just so happen to own the bulk of your land so you can't really fuck with it. We will use it as we see fit and you will get whatever royalties we deem fair and just, 'cause we really need to divert that money, that rightfully should be yours, to keep those housing projects on the other side of the country running. Now deal with it."

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"If guns are supposed to kill people, then all of mine are defective..."
-The Honorable Ted Nugent

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:06 pm

That was a tad bit over the top, I know, but you get the point. Besides, I've been dealing with progs lately so their argument tactics have rubbed off a bit.

BTW-this new fangled format makes posting from a phone damn near impossible. I really didn't feel like breaking this response up into seperate portions, but it kinda forced me to do it.

_________________
"If guns are supposed to kill people, then all of mine are defective..."
-The Honorable Ted Nugent

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:24 pm

Bottom line: states back east tend to manage state lands very effectively.....even though the money they get to do so is paltry in comparison. There is no reason western states need Federal guidance to manage their lands. The handful of national forests in my state suck. Everyone knows new growth woods are better hunting than old growth woods. Undergrowth disappears as the canopy overhead chokes out the light leaving no forage for many animals. Meanwhile vast tracts are owned by logging companies or oil companies who allow it to be logged. These are prime new growth woods. Since we have a zero tolerance wildfire policy in this country, logging is the only way to have a truly healthy forest. State lands are managed much the same way as the private land.

Basically, it boils down to whether or not you actually know there is another way. Remember what I said true tyranny is??? It is the basic removal of the realization that other options do indeed exist. We can see that land is managed and conserved in other ways besides the Feds feeling the need to own just over 30% of the nation's land......and it is done more effectively in many ways.

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"If guns are supposed to kill people, then all of mine are defective..."
-The Honorable Ted Nugent

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:26 am

Marconius wrote:That was a tad bit over the top, I know, but you get the point. Besides, I've been dealing with progs lately so their argument tactics have rubbed off a bit.

BTW-this new fangled format makes posting from a phone damn near impossible. I really didn't feel like breaking this response up into seperate portions, but it kinda forced me to do it.

I'm not a huge fan of the new format.  It wasn't my doing, I had no say in the matter.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:19 am

Marconius wrote:Bottom line: states back east tend to manage state lands very effectively.....even though the money they get to do so is paltry in comparison. There is no reason western states need Federal guidance to manage their lands. The handful of national forests in my state suck. Everyone knows new growth woods are better hunting than old growth woods. Undergrowth disappears as the canopy overhead chokes out the light leaving no forage for many animals. Meanwhile vast tracts are owned by logging companies or oil companies who allow it to be logged. These are prime new growth woods. Since we have a zero tolerance wildfire policy in this country, logging is the only way to have a truly healthy forest. State lands are managed much the same way as the private land.

Basically, it boils down to whether or not you actually know there is another way. Remember what I said true tyranny is??? It is the basic removal of the realization that other options do indeed exist. We can see that land is managed and conserved in other ways besides the Feds feeling the need to own just over 30% of the nation's land......and it is done more effectively in many ways.

It isn't the state's land, its the Federal government's land.  The State has no constitutional or legal claim to that land.  In some cases, the National Forests are older than the states.  An interesting note, the state governments of these western states don't seem to have a problem with Federal management, mostly because its usually quite effective.  Also worth note, while California does have several state forests (most of which arent terribly big) they tend not to be as popular for recreation, as productive, or as effectively managed as the USDA administered forests.

Clear cutting is severely detrimental affects to forest health, forest ecology, and forest hydrology.  By removing trees, you reduce the forest complexity, thus reducing the amount of available habitat for many organisms.  Clear cutting the trees also reduces the amount of structure in the soil and helps increase soil and shallow bedrock, greatly increasing the chance of slope failure (look at the debris flows generated from the clear cut in the above picture above, those are a direct result of poor forest management).  Clear cutting or other excessive forest management also increases the severity of flooding that can devastate down-stream communities, contributes to stream incision and temperature increase (destroys fish habitat, linked to problems with the pacific salmon runs), and can lead to accelerated soil erosion (reduces soil productivity, possibly inhibiting future forest generation).  That isn't efficient forest management, thats a one time raping of an areas natural resources.  Thats not liberal arts degree bullshit, thats the result of scientific study.

We no longer have a zero tolerance policy for wildfires on Forest or National Park lands.  We used to and that was a terrible mistake, now the decision on how to manage a fire is usually related to cultural features threatened or other management concerns.  Logging is an important activity both for economic reasons as well as for fuels management.  It annoys me to no end when I get some environmentalist (the real thing, not the Grant County definition) arguing that the only fuels management method should be burns (in most areas if we did that it would quickly go from a low intensity controlled burn to a wild stand replacing fire).  That said, logging isn't the only way to achieve a healthy forest, it is but a component.  The type of logging favored on many Pacific Northwest private forest is anything but the best way to achieve a healthy forest.

I think all that this was was the community throwing a fit that the Forest Service wouldn't let them go in and cut as many trees as they could manage haul off.  From what I've seen the Malheur NF carefully takes local economic factors into consideration and does all it can to maximise the economics of treatment areas, however some won't be satisfied unless they have unlimited access.  The challenge is balancing sustainable timber management with meeting local needs (ie not giving in to short sighted calls for excessive timber management).

As to the UN ban, it had an unanticipated consequence.  The designation as a UN Free Zone by the county attracted the head of the Aryan Nation, who decided he wanted to set up shop in John Day.  Fortunately the community drew together and managed to keep they from being able to acquire land.  The below article touches on the local paper's, The Blue Mountain Eagle, heroic struggle to organize the community to keep those peckerwood SOBs out (note that the 600 people at the anti-nazi rally represent over 8% of Grant County's total population).

http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/news/neo-nazi-settling-in-ohio/article_320de783-609d-5680-9793-0a21bae23b3f.html
John Day 1 Neo-Nazi 0
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Sir Pun on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:52 am

Marconius wrote:That was a tad bit over the top, I know, but you get the point. Besides, I've been dealing with progs lately so their argument tactics have rubbed off a bit.

BTW-this new fangled format makes posting from a phone damn near impossible. I really didn't feel like breaking this response up into seperate portions, but it kinda forced me to do it.
click on classic version

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Dennis324 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:49 am

Bryant wrote:
As per my response to Dennis, there is a huge difference in land management/exploitation policy, which is what they were trying to get at.  From what I've seen, there is an instinctive knee jerk reaction to anything viewed as 'environmentalist.'  Some malicious individual strung fishing wire tied to trees across some of the Forest roads the other week (a rancher on his quad got a little cut up), and the locals instantly blamed environmentalists (despite an utter lack of evidence).   
That's probably true.  But then enviros don't have the best record to be honest.  Some are real trouble-makers.
 
Otoh, most conservationists are more respectful, care about land management and the wildlife and yet still appreciate the lumber industry.  Back in the 60s I was taught by Conservationists.  I was in the 4H club and the scouts.  It was a different time.  We cared about the ecology and we knew to use the law and petition out govt if we saw things getting out of hand.  
 
We didn't go out and try to destroy equipment or hurt people.  We didn't drive nails into trees so chainsaws would tear up.  And we certainly didn't string wire across trails.  See the difference?  Very Happy

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:56 am

Dennis324 wrote:
Bryant wrote:
As per my response to Dennis, there is a huge difference in land management/exploitation policy, which is what they were trying to get at.  From what I've seen, there is an instinctive knee jerk reaction to anything viewed as 'environmentalist.'  Some malicious individual strung fishing wire tied to trees across some of the Forest roads the other week (a rancher on his quad got a little cut up), and the locals instantly blamed environmentalists (despite an utter lack of evidence).   
That's probably true.  But then enviros don't have the best record to be honest.  Some are real trouble-makers.
 
Otoh, most conservationists are more respectful, care about land management and the wildlife and yet still appreciate the lumber industry.  Back in the 60s I was taught by Conservationists.  I was in the 4H club and the scouts.  It was a different time.  We cared about the ecology and we knew to use the law and petition out govt if we saw things getting out of hand.  
 
We didn't go out and try to destroy equipment or hurt people.  We didn't drive nails into trees so chainsaws would tear up.  And we certainly didn't string wire across trails.  See the difference?  Very Happy

Why am I being asked to defend the ELF!? I'm on your side on that issue!

I'm glad you have an appreciation of basic appreciation of conservation, too many on the right look at a forest and only see $$$.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:28 am

Bryant wrote:
Dennis324 wrote:
Bryant wrote:
As per my response to Dennis, there is a huge difference in land management/exploitation policy, which is what they were trying to get at.  From what I've seen, there is an instinctive knee jerk reaction to anything viewed as 'environmentalist.'  Some malicious individual strung fishing wire tied to trees across some of the Forest roads the other week (a rancher on his quad got a little cut up), and the locals instantly blamed environmentalists (despite an utter lack of evidence).   
That's probably true.  But then enviros don't have the best record to be honest.  Some are real trouble-makers.
 
Otoh, most conservationists are more respectful, care about land management and the wildlife and yet still appreciate the lumber industry.  Back in the 60s I was taught by Conservationists.  I was in the 4H club and the scouts.  It was a different time.  We cared about the ecology and we knew to use the law and petition out govt if we saw things getting out of hand.  
 
We didn't go out and try to destroy equipment or hurt people.  We didn't drive nails into trees so chainsaws would tear up.  And we certainly didn't string wire across trails.  See the difference?  Very Happy

Why am I being asked to defend the ELF!?  I'm on your side on that issue!

I'm glad you have an appreciation of basic appreciation of conservation, too many on the right look at a forest and only see $$$.
I think that idea is as patently false as the idea that ELF is an environmental group.

Most on the right wholeheartedly agree with conservation of resources.

Why do we allow a false narrative to be fed to us???

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-The Honorable Ted Nugent

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Sir Pun on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:03 pm

I dont think thats true at all considering the number of "conservative" outdoorsmen, they just deviate from the "save the planet at all cost" crowd, and likely use a little more common sense

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Dennis324 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:16 pm

Bryant wrote:
Dennis324 wrote:
Bryant wrote:
As per my response to Dennis, there is a huge difference in land management/exploitation policy, which is what they were trying to get at.  From what I've seen, there is an instinctive knee jerk reaction to anything viewed as 'environmentalist.'  Some malicious individual strung fishing wire tied to trees across some of the Forest roads the other week (a rancher on his quad got a little cut up), and the locals instantly blamed environmentalists (despite an utter lack of evidence).   
That's probably true.  But then enviros don't have the best record to be honest.  Some are real trouble-makers.
 
Otoh, most conservationists are more respectful, care about land management and the wildlife and yet still appreciate the lumber industry.  Back in the 60s I was taught by Conservationists.  I was in the 4H club and the scouts.  It was a different time.  We cared about the ecology and we knew to use the law and petition out govt if we saw things getting out of hand.  
 
We didn't go out and try to destroy equipment or hurt people.  We didn't drive nails into trees so chainsaws would tear up.  And we certainly didn't string wire across trails.  See the difference?  Very Happy

Why am I being asked to defend the ELF!?  I'm on your side on that issue!

I'm glad you have an appreciation of basic appreciation of conservation, too many on the right look at a forest and only see $$$.
The what?? 

I think a lot of big business and the timber barons probably look at the land and see only $.  But from what I've read, after cutting timber many landowners go right back and replant.  Least they do here.  And yeah I think you and I are Sympatico on conservation.  Smile  And beer.

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Sir Pun on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Sustainable logging practices are pretty standard almost everywhere.

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:00 am

Big Pun wrote:Sustainable logging practices are pretty standard almost everywhere.

On Federal land, yes. On many of the private Forests I've seen (take a drive up I-5 through Oregon or explore the Mt. St. Helens area) they simply clear cut, which is in no way sustainable.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Dennis324 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:10 pm

Agreed.  On private land, but what should we do?  Force them to replant?

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:21 pm

Bryant wrote:
Big Pun wrote:Sustainable logging practices are pretty standard almost everywhere.

On Federal land, yes.  On many of the private Forests I've seen (take a drive up I-5 through Oregon or explore the Mt. St. Helens area) they simply clear cut, which is in no way sustainable.

Not in my area. As stated before, most forests in my home state are owned by logging companies. Clear cut is not the standard practice there and should not be anywhere especially in terrain where elevations chage dramatically.

One question though; does clear cutting result in a different landscape than wild fires???

Not trying to justify the unjustifiable.

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Re: Where I Live

Post by Marconius on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:21 pm

Would someone please explain to Dennis that they are already forced to replant at a ratio of 2:1 on all logging operations.

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"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, and they're behind us. They can't get away this time!" -Gen. L. "Chesty" Puller, CO, 1 MARDIV, in Korea surrounded by 22 enemy divisions

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Bryant on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:29 am

After ragging on the local community, I think this is a good time to point out something I actually kind of admire. The folks around here watch out for each other. A couple hours ago a man attempted to kidnap a young boy from his front yard in the town of Mt. Vernon (about 15 miles west of John Day). Fortunately the boy was able to escape and provide a basic description of the perp. Now several locals are out looking for the attempted kidnapper. While this might be a little on the vigilante side of things, at least it demonstrates how quickly people in this sparsely populated are draw together to protect each other. In many larger cities people wouldn't give their neighbors the time of day if this were to happen to them.
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Re: Where I Live

Post by Sir Pun on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:09 am

Exactly. Ppl in flyover country are different. Not primitive or backwards, just a different way of thinking and being.

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